Wednesday, January 22, 2025

Philippians 3:10-12 (go through 16?)

3:10 - The goal:  The experiencing first hand: Him , ---- and also (experiencing first hand) even His ability to perform the standing-up-again (aka: resurrection) of Himself (out of death), and the partnership:  sharing in common with Him, His self's own capacity and privilege of experiencing strong emotion and concern (passion)..... morphed together with his dying, (by my dying in a smaller way),

3:11 - Assuming the possibility, if in some manner I reach my destination (by) pressing into the rising up utterly out from that which lacks life......

3:12 - Not that I have already assertively laid hold & received or have already reached completeness at the end destination (perfection); still, I am aggressively pursuing a prize, assuming (by faith) that the possibility is utterly real and true, namely that, with decisive and eager initiative, I will sieze it, making it my own, on the basis of who seized me by the authority of The Promised One, The Savior.

Promises, Examples to Follow, & Commands after the Resurrection


::::::CONSTRUCTION ZONE::::::


Work in progress::::

"And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified." Matthew 28:5    Those who seek Jesus are invited and exhorted to 'fear not'.... For "He is not here: for he is risen, as he said....." (Matthew 28:6)


Even before Jesus gave the Great Commission to His followers, the angel had given instruction to the women to "...go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead.... And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word." (Matthew 28:7b, 8)  Keep in mind that during the time of Jesus' life and ministry on earth, there were twelve whom are called His disciples....., it is not for us to know who all are disciples in spirit and in truth.  It is for us to go quickly and tell.... for in the telling, we will have opportunity to tell His disciples.... even those who have not heard His Word yet.....


And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word." (Matthew 28:8)  As Paul exhorts us to 'run the race' today, we need to run to bring his disciples word....., and in so doing, we need to 'depart quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy,' realizing the fear of what we have been saved from, what others need to be saved from; realizing the wonder of how Jesus saved us, that He finished that work ( and also realizing the joy of what our Lord has accomplished for us!


"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him."  (Matthew 27:9)  As we run to seek out His disciples, to tell them more of Jesus, we need to be sensitive to stop 'our' work whenever Jesus calls out to us to meet with Him along the way.  He is 'better than life' ..... Time with Him is also better than business 'for Him', but without Him.  We need Him to be the one working in and through us, so we need to not run headlong ahead of Him, leaving Him out of the process of 'sharing Him.'  Rather, the more we meet Him, the more His light shines into our hearts and minds, and therefore, the more His light will shine out of our hearts and minds when it is time for us to move on (with Him), running to share Him with others again.

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."  (Matthew 27:9)   Oh, yes, 'beautiful are the feet'....., but whose feet are truly, truly, truly the most beautiful?  Humility is key here.

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."  (Matthew 27:9)  And out of the humility, and as the light shines into our souls, what else can happen, but that we join in and worship Him too!

"Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me."  (Matthew 17:10)  As the angel's message above, now Jesus, Himself, also beckons us to 'be not afraid.'  This must be important.

"Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me."  (Matthew 17:10)  Now the women's instruction changes in a couple of ways.  On the one hand, they are not advised to tell the 'disciples' (the message the angle gave).  Rather, Jesus alters the terms here, and sends them to 'His brethren!'  Here, the women were to provide specific instructions regarding how specific 'brethren' could seek Jesus in such a way that they may 'see Him'.  Anyone who has seen God, sees His own sin (e.g. - Peter asking Jesus to leave after He had told Peter to cast the net to the other side of the boat, and the net, which had been utterly empty all night, was suddenly filled......, Peter asked Him to leave because He saw Jesus utter power of love, goodness, provision, and... well, the power of His power.  This underscored for Peter what it should for us:  That God is pure and holy and absolutely love, and we are so far short of that, that most of us already admit that we are, in and of ourselves, without His saving grace, so far short of His glory..... even downright evil.  We can all 'see Him' through prayer, meditation, and the study of His Word.  In these ways, we can 'taste and see' that the Lord is good.






Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.









Wednesday, September 14, 2022

Jude 1b (Part IV) ..... the servant ...... (cont....)

So it has been several years since I laid down my cyber pen about the incredible book of Jude..... It is time to take it back up, at least for a little while. I do hope to finish at least a deep overview of Jude, but I keep being humbled by a growing awareness that any little things that I can delve into are only an slight sliver of the vast infinity of the living truths which our Heavenly Father has actually made available to us in each word of His love letter. It is truly filled with kind hearted guidance, which He has given to us....... word by word, book by book, season by season..... May we take time to "cease striving"... and look at Him long enough to recognize more of who He is, who we are, and from that see our immense need for more and more of Him in our lives.

Ode to letting time slip by..... While it was not improper to set aside the pen, I delayed too long in picking it back up..... May God help me to be more faithful.....

Indeed, I have been in the Word often through these years, but in the meantime, my heart has been drawn back towards Jude often, but wanderlust, even sometimes while studying God's Word, drew me in other directions.....

Certainly, I wish to become more and more focused on the fact that the end of a thing is better than the beginning of it..... (Eccl. 7:8a)..... and thereby become more steady in my progress towards some ends..... Though, of course, only our Lord Jesus Christ is the ultimate beginning and the ultimate end..... I  can only manage to explore portions of just some of His trails..... trails which He blazed for us in the midst of His eternal designs.....

And so, it is time to pick up where I left off.....

.....with Jude's embrace of being "the servant".....

Indeed, the greatest servant of all was Jeshua ha'Meshiach! He served His Father by doing His Father's will (John 4:34).  He proved to the world the holy nature of His love for the Father by doing exactly what the Father asked of Him (John 14:31)..... in patience, understanding that our flesh is weak, so weak that even at the end of His earthly ministry with them, His disciples still did not understand the honor in serving others, .... so He served them yet again by washing their feet (John 13:1-17), and from that last and lowly place, He allowed Himself to be brought even lower to utter scorn, and beatings, and a horribly painful death ...... for us..... serving us through His very suffering and death (Matt 20:28). And yes, from that place..... from the lowliest place of all.....  He was vaulted to being the most exalted of all and for all eternity (Phil 2:9)!

But our Lord Jesus was not silent in His service. He didn't wish the worst upon Himself..... He dared to ask His Father if the worst of it all could somehow pass Him by..... (Mattt 26:39).

But after He asked to be spared, He was faithful even when He was not spared. Not even one part of His life was spared. But He pressed on to finish His service on earth for us anyway.......    all just to turn us from our wicked ways so that we could have life..... with Him, and that more and more abundantly......... to take our empty days of walking in death.... and change our days into days of overflowing life!!!! (Acts 3:26, 2Corinthians 9:8)

But our Lord's confidence in serving His Father fully and in utter faithfulness was service given with a promise known - a promise of being lifted up..... (Isaiah 52:13).  A promise that all who received Him as Lord would love lifting Him up..... and rejoice in Him as Lord!!! (Phil. 2:9)

So, Jude, knowing all of this about his.... brother..... came to understand that he should live like Jesus: Since Jesus was a servant, Jude should be a servant. As should we all... (I John 2:6).  After all, Jesus even said as much (John 13:14)

More to the point, Paul clarified that even our attitude must be one of compassion and love and concern for others, just like our precious Jesus has for us.... (Phil 2:3-5)..... and didn't that love bring Jesus low, sacrificing everything for us and serving us as an example to us?

Even if we are we are called upon to suffer..... (I Peter 2:21)

But is that all we can see even from a brief meditation on the words "the servant"?

Odd to Jude calling himself "the" servant!!! What could that mean to us today?

While pondering that question, one particular rendering of Romans 12:10b from the ESV came to mind. It says,  "Outdo one another in brotherly affection." I wondered if that might be a clue about being a biblical servant, especially since the CEV  speaks of being devoted to and honoring others more than ourselves.

However, the Greek seems to lean in another direction.... that we should be an example to each other.....   Is that not a part of what Jesus did when He was serving us? On the one hand, that seems to be an over simplification. On the other hand, Jesus Himself said that if we love Him and each other with all of our being, we fulfill the whole law and the prophets.....

Does that lead us towards being a doormat? Well, Jesus died for us, but He wants us to reciprocate and lay down our lives for Him in service to Him and to each other. Galatians 6:2, in the Greek, tells us that when we "mutually" and "reciprocally " take up and bear each other's burdens, that then we fulfill the law. Is that not being a servant?

But..... Jude went further than calling himself a servant. Jude called himself "the" servant. He bowed himself down before his earthly older brother and his Savior.... before Jeshua Ha Meshiach, and must have considered himself not only unworthy to loose the ties of his brother's sandals, but also, too low to expect to be served by others.....


Saturday, June 10, 2017

Entering His Gates, Coming Into His Courts, the Gates and Courts of Our Father.....

Our Father, how wonderfully You have instructed us in Your ways through Your Word and through the Way!

How marvelously You have knit together Your instruction from the strands of truth spun out for us throughout Your Word!

Teach us how to come before You for hope, healing, celebration, togetherness, fellowship, and mutual love.....

The great Psalm of praise, Psalm 100, begins so clearly!

Hariu

ר֫וּעַ -- Rua!!!!   ---- Shout! 

ר֫וּעַ ---- Rua!!!!!!!  ----- Shout!!!!!

Ode to the rendering in the King James Version: 

Make a joyful noise to the Lord all ye lands....

ר֫וּעַ  -------  Rua!!!!!!!!!  ---  Rua!!!!!!  -----   Shout!!!!!  -------  Shout!!!!

Sunday, July 3, 2016

?Detoxing from Religion?

John Pavlovitz has recently written a post intended to convey grace......

But it is a dangerous grace........

A grace accepting grace without advancing it........

It is a stagnant pool that only receives without allowing the flow of waters beyond it........

It is a selfish view of grace.......

And, not so surprisingly, it resulted in a caustic response in the comments below (not attributed to Pavlovitz, of course, but 'toxic grace' does indeed draw out such caustic responses....):

Hoax

The great hoax
foisted by religion

has been
the infallibility
of its doctrines

To which I responded:

a great turn of words.... but.....

The greatest hoax foisted by the flesh is.....

That those infallibly true truths can't be misunderstood by the soul......

Of course they are! By ourselves as well as by those who have led before us (or who are leading us now)..........

The thing that is John Pavlovitz's article is missing?

Grace..............

Which is the cure...........

You see, grace coming into us is not enough.

We must step onto the platform of grace for those around us.... even for those in leadership, who have led us, or are leading us, who have similar types of misconceptions of true doctrines (maybe not the very same ones..... but an inability to see straight..... which we also struggle with,..... no?!....)

Oh, the words might all be properly thought out.

The foundation of them might be properly established on the Cornerstone.......

But if our vision isn't changed by what we know "properly", perhaps the 'corrective lens of scripture' isn't sitting squarely on our faces..........

...........so we still see life and living........ all askew.........

........ we still see amiss........

So, if we hope to receive grace for ourselves for such skewed vision........

How is it that we should not receive grace to share with those who have, or are --- leading us in the wrong direction.

.....

When we really step up onto the platform of grace?  Then we can dive deeply into the living water.... the flowing, alive, fresh, life-giving water of grace.......

When we really step up onto that platform of grace?  For the whole body of Christ......

When we are really praying from the depth of our beings:

"OUR Father......."

Then it is that the healing begins..........

But not until then...........






.

Friday, June 24, 2016

Clinging to Our God and Father........

"In the world, dependence is seen as immaturity.  But in My kingdom, dependence on Me is a prime measure of maturity."  ---  or so Sarah Young attributes these thoughts to God's precious heart in her devotional Jesus Calling, in her entry for today, June 24.

......and methinks, she is right.

Or course, Sarah Young also included encouraging and insightful scriptures for the day..... one being found in Psalm 62.....  Now, I love it when I can take the time to read through the whole chapter or so in which these scriptural references are found, particularly when a psalm is involved.  Today, I was blessed to be able to do so...... asking questions along the way.

Today, I happened to scan my way through the psalm first, and found the whole thing to be so peace-giving and restful in regards to us, God's people - in spite of the trials of this life.  And against this peaceful foreground of "life at rest in spite of trouble," is the main setting:  the grand, and amazing, and powerful love of God for all of His people.

That alone is rich...... But then my curiosity was piqued when I noticed out of the corner of my eye that the author was Jeduthun.  Hmmm.... 'think, think, think....."  Who is Jeduthun? As it, of course, turns out, Jeduthun was a major figure in David's day, in spite of the fact that he did not play a big part in any stories told to me as a child.  Furthermore, in these more recent years, his name had not made an impression on my heart when I have been reading through scriptures.  So I did not place his name quickly, yet here he was, so honored as to have written this amazing psalm captured in holy writ.  Driven by a growing sense of curiosity, I searched in Biblegateway for his name in scripture.  

It was so exciting to see that this Levite, who had been raised up by King David to lead in thanksgiving, praise, and worship in the temple, wrote such a beautiful psalm...., one which captures so much of the heart of Sarah Young's message for today:  relying utterly on God in order to reach the fullness of maturity into which He has called us.

It was also exciting to notice how it is that his sons served with him in the temple worship.  Some of them kept the gates.....  Yes, they kept the gates while he led the people in worship. 

Hmmmm, the sons keeping the gates while the father leads in worship.

How beautiful is that!

How often does that happen today?  How often does it not?  How often do we fail our heavenly Father by failing to properly raise up our sons as He fathered and raised up Jeduthun, and as Jeduthun did as he fathered and raised up his own sons?

What is it that 'went right' for this to have happened in Jeduthun's life?

Of course, being a huge fan of the messages in scripture that can be found by knowing the meanings of names in the Bible....... and in seeking to meditate on these particular scriptures, and especially in seeking leading from the Holy Spirit, I sought to know more of this man, Jeduthun, by learning about his name!

There are two main roots to the name Jeduthun. As it turns out, like the name Judas/Judah, at the heart of the name Jeduthun is the holy name of God:  confess....God!

The HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament provides a slightly more expanded version of 'Confess - - God!' by rendering the meaning of Judah as: 

"to acknowledge or confess sin, God's character and works, or man's character."

Consider then how appropriate it is that this man who was raised up to lead God's people in praise had a name which gave Jeduthun an opportunity to remember our need to do this each time he heard his own name!

Consider then also, how Jeduthun's sons knew that they ought to grow up worthy of their father's good name..... not to the perfection of their father!  Oh, no!  For their father, they knew, had to confess his own nature, which was not sufficient for life, to God in worship.  But the good name of their father came from the fact that he humbly did just that. Jeduthun did 'acknowledge and confess sin, God's character and works, and man's character.'

Jeduthun's sons must have had at least some very real understanding of our need to 'Confess... God!'.  They also seem to have been very faithful in the task set to them.  They understood that they needed to be keepers at the gate, protecting those who were attending to this vital need in our lives!

Were Jeduthun's sons 'tending to their father's business?'  

It does indeed seem that they were.

What an honor for them all.

Now, may we be about the Heavenly Father's business........

Leading out before the people, 'Confessing....God!', and loving them, helping them to understand the love, peace, and honor that comes from their choosing to do the same.......

As Jeduthun said so poignantly in his psalm:

'Yes, my soul, find rest in God;
   my hope comes from him
Truly he is my rock and my salvation;
  he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
My salvation and my honor depend on God;
  he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
Trust in him at all times, you people;
  pour out your hearts to him,
  for God is our refuge.'  Psalm 62:5-8

What else can we do than to repeat this sentiment down through the ages?  Even to those who have failed with their own children in days past....  What else can we do for those around us today?  What else can those around us do?

Each one of us will either cling to the good name of Our Heavenly Father, and stand and watch the gates as needed, and thereby cling to the gift of His Son..... the gift of life......

Or we have nothing with which to cling onto anything at all.........

Which truth is said so well at the end of Psalm 62:

"One thing God has spoken,
  two things I have heard:
'Power belongs to you, God,
  and with you, Lord, is unfailing love';
and, 'You reward everyone 
according to what they have done.'"

What an amazing thing.... that when God has spoken one thing..... we indeed must hear two!

Confess...... God!  In.....deed.........






......

Friday, June 10, 2016

Evangelism.... and Legalism....... and........ a solution........

Hmmm, today, in my inbox, I found a link to an article written about complaining and its perceived relationship with evangelism, an article whose author had come to the conclusion that, as some would put it:

"If you wanna complain, you gotta evangelize first."

Some valid points in that.  Obedience in spite of problem is of high value.  Furthermore, the problem addressed by the article is very real......... I mean, it is utterly true that:

Even a spiritual infant can evangelize!  And it is important not just to notice when it happens, but it is important to understand that every single believer is able to stand in the light given to each of us, that each one of us can begin living out the great commission right away - at least in little ways right away. Of course, that should continue throughout our lives, even as we each strive to mature more and more fully in the Lord.

But putting even a well meaning guideline into such terms creates a dictum.  Many a dictum has led many a heart, and even many a church, into many a breed of legalism.  Things haven't changed much in that aspect yet.  Even today, many a dictum can lead many a heart into many a breed of legalism yet again.  One question which arises, then, is simply this:  How ought church leadership respond to complaining?

As for complaining itself:  Much 'complaining' has to do with church functioning.  Much of the sort of complaining which was being discussed at the above mentioned link is about how the church functions, or fails to do so, and is expressed by immature members among the laity.  Hate it!  But.........:   Been there.  Joined them in that.  Heard others go there.  Hate it even more now!  ---  I hope and pray that I've left all that in my past.  But I need God's grace to accomplish such a task day by day.

.........

That said, first off, and this is my premise:  orderly, and might I add, non-dysfunctional church functioning does indeed promote evangelism.  Thus, the immature complaining being addressed by the article in question  specifically by the above mentioned laity, while they do not realize it, is actually driving the attention where it ought to have already been.

I mean, back when the Israelites were complaining...... that is to say, *after* the Israelites were complaining, Moses would go and pray for their needs.  Then God would intervene and provide for those needs, and, sometimes, He would also apply any needed corrections for the edification of those present who were of faith at that time and for the edification of those who are of faith now.

Hmmm, how to put this.  In my own life, God has been teaching me about specificity in prayer.  As one dear young lady, a friend of mine, very simply put it, "God already knows what we need, He just likes us to ask Him."  She was right.  He does like us to ask Him.  He even likes us to ask Him in specifics.  So the question of when to pray, and what to pray comes to mind.  Obviously, the answer has everything to do with the leading of the Holy Spirit.

In my own case, the Holy Spirit had been challenging me to pray with more specificity for some time.... first more subtly, and later, quite obviously.  Those around me would occasionally hear my confessions that I knew I had not prayed enough.  Perhaps the nodding of heads, along with a sense that we all know we could and should all pray more, lulled me into a relative complacency.  While, on the one hand, I sought to grow in prayer, on the other hand, I knew down deep inside that I was not growing in prayer as much as I should.  Sometimes, I would pray specifically, but not broadly enough (such as the times when I would ask God to protect my children from spider bites, yet He allowed them to bite me......, with yet another reminder to be more specific........).  Sometimes those I should be ministering to have 'gone without', at least for a time, because I did not pray about some specific need or other, either in at all, or with the specificity that God has been calling me to.  Nor did I do enough to teach those I ministered to pray for those needs....., though that is a complicated issue (which is a whole 'nuther book......).

As for prayer - and the story of Moses praying for God's people as mentioned above:  Perhaps, before the veil was rent, it was the job of the priestly family to do the praying for everyone else.  Perhaps, even in Moses' day, the people should not have been taught to bring their petitions before God themselves.  However, perhaps they should have been taught to

As an example of dysfunction in just one type of church-organization:

In too many of the churches, or portions of churches, where discipleship evangelism is being preached, but not implemented as preached (in particular: helping the young/infant/children type of Christians grow in the Lord and become 'spiritual adults' - which should, of course, include evangelism in varying ways at all stages of development), there is a growing confusion which is impacting the church's ability to coordinate around evangelism.

If the goal in discipleship-focused churches is supposedly "to raise up discipleship groups that produce discipleship groups" *in order to reach others for Christ and draw them into a discipleship environment*, but the emphasis *in practice* focuses on efforts to reproduce more groups (thereby 'demonstrating' evangelism), all without real discipleship going on (with 'real discipleship' meaning: actually helping all of the spiritual infants and youth who have a teachable spirit learn from a spiritual parent; which would necessarily include spiritual parents helping the 'younger' believers who are less 'goal oriented' learn how to break down bigger goals-about-maturing-in-various-ways into manageable bites --- manageable specifically for them......, guiding them *at the developmental level of the child/youth not only spiritually, but functionally as well* - errrrr..... all of which can be a daunting task..... I mean, being a parent of a child/youth who does not function the way the parent does is never easy --- it takes prayer over time to learn from Our Heavenly Father just how to parent any. one. child., let alone a whole family of varying types of children, or a whole small group of varying types of disciples....... - something which is more difficult, perhaps, for goal oriented pastors to picture..... Really: how does a goal oriented pastor and/or 'spiritual parent' deal with many less *naturally* goal oriented laity/infants-children - especially when you include 'the least of these, my brethren' - which would include the developmentally challenged .... err.... might I put it in the terms of those who have visual impairments, which means that they don't see what you think they see........... in either small or significant ways...... after all, many children need rather specialized parenting - -- something that any true and committed parent can learn how to do through prayer, if they will devote themselves fully to pray, with all fervency),....

.......anyway, in the midst of parental dysfunction (a parent not knowing how to parent - and thus a parent devolving into the ruins of legalism), the obvious hypocrisy of not doing what you teach confuses the spiritual youth, making it difficult for them to *want* to bring in others to that sort of confusion. For them to do so would be like saying, "Hey, do you want to come and be built up in a state of confusion with me? Don't you want to come with me and be brought into a family where you are expected to perform without being taught how to perform!!!???? Won't that be fun!??? Then we can be confused, miserable, and utterly shamed by our parents together!!!!! Woohoo!!!"

For the youth/infants to do so would require maturing faith...... which God can grant, and does at times.

However, for a 'parent' to expect their infants and youth to apply such mature faith, without walking in that path *directly with them*, and then for that same parent to judge them from the sideline, would be like expecting children to go to their school, pick up their books, and do their lessons without being taught.

Seeing the reasonable frustration and even anger of the child leaves one thinking of the verse:

"Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart."

........

That said, a few people can actually survive an academic arena with little to no instruction.

However, in the business world, and in the schools, it is very clear that most people cannot grow without hands on training in knowledge, academic skills, wisdom, or in job performance.

Think about it.  It's so simple:  Most people are not so innovative that they can devise 'best practice' on their own, let alone *implement* established best practice on their own.

Most people don't want to innovate best practice.  And most people don't even begin to think about how to implement best practice for themselves.

Yes, Christians do have the Holy Spirit to guide them, but even Paul said, "Do as you have *seen me do*."

Again, through fervent prayer, people can figure out how to implement instructions in solo fashion - or as a group, with or without verbal/video instruction......, but is that the way things *should* be?

If we look at a 'family' or even a 'corporate body', clearly that is not how things should be.

That is not how families or bodies work in the real world any more than it is how they work in the spiritual world.

Criticizing the untrained youth and children is destructive (and some church leadership does criticize their untrained youth and children - and even untrained adults to some extent....... all without offering training........ all quite literally).

........

In summary:

Only a very few people can actually grow in the spiritual arena with little to no tutoring by simply working off of the list of to-do's, because they are goal oriented types of people.  I mean, they can even take the 'to do' of leaning on the Holy Spirit very seriously.  Viola!  Success!  (for a few......)

However, most people cannot do that - whatever type of church organization is being embraced by a local body.

If we want our churches to evangelize more broadly, we as a church need to use an orderly means of following our Head, that is Christ, - an orderly means that we will actually live out together, whatever that model is.

If we want to encourage those in the pews to grow spiritually, keep our first love, and thereby reach the lost, we can't afford to take short cuts in implementing orderly growth, internally, and externally.  (properly taking care of one's own body, and then using that body to tend to the garden as it were)

R. C. Sproul spoke about the organization of the church being so necessary.  Some complain about organization, wanting to be free to simply worship God, rather than being caught up in religion.  So they run off on their own.  (a different type of choice which also fails to evangelize..... illustrating the fact that the 'body' should evangelize......., even though, sometimes, individuals do......... but mostly, only if they are truly connected to a body ...............  )

Anyway, R.C. Sproul's response to those who are tired of religious organization, so they decry organization is simply that any 'body' that is not organized will not live long. -------- soooo well said........

While I'm not meaning to imply that you, Thom S. Rainer, are seeking to short circuit more order to the body (obviously not)...... I am saying that some might hear your words here, and use them to add to a stronghold that they have already been fashioning to protect themselves from the truth........to protect their legalistic hypocrisy.

That said, if a body has an orderly plan, but cannot live by that plan because they are worshiping the god of 'evangelism first' & only *really* the gospel presentation - not the gospel *function* - all at the expense of working the orderly plan......, then, not surprisingly, disorder occurs..... and..... well........

Well, let's just say that one would necessarily see that the body is experiencing spasms which are not profitable for the body, nor for the lost.

It's just a terrible state of confusion.

Those in leadership in such spasmodic churches will likely not see clearly on that subject, because those in the church nearest them are in a functioning relationship with them..., so the fault is though, necessarily, to be 'their fault'...... (whose fault?:  why of course! It's the fault of .........the infants and children.......!  What?????!!!!! --- because they are not functioning like the adults who are close to the church leadership.........  )

Of course infants and youth do not function like adults, especially when they are mostly left to themselves to follow instructions.

When the above truths are understood and established as the paradigm from which we look back on the first gospel efforts, Christianity grew like wildfire back in the days of Rome because it was a religion for the plebes (.... errr..... might I suggest: for the spiritually dead, the spiritual infants, and the spiritual youth)....., not just those close to the leadership team.

FWIW, in the case of a breakdown between leadership and the laity (or the parents and the infants), simply stating that no one should complain unless they have evangelized first, is a bit of an oversimplification.........

That's like saying that children who have merely seen "the video" or heard "the lecture", or have even been to the small group "discussion" should necessarily be able to go out on their own and do whatever task is set before them.  Any large family who implemented such practice with all of their children, and then sent their children off individually to implement their new knowledge set, would find that many of their children simply do not 'see' everything they were shown through the video, lecture, or discussion.

Until the eye can see what is to be done, ......... well, there is no light.

"But if your vision is poor, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!"

Not to say that evangelism should stop, just because the local body is experiencing seizures and/or even darkness, but seizures/darkness should hardly be ignored "for the sake of evangelizing" (again, not that you are arguing for that, but some, upon hearing your words, would add to the fortress walls which protect their hypocrisy).......

..........

The Great Commission, that is to say, Evangelism.....:  Yes, evangelism itself, according to the Great Commission, does indeed include making disciples in an organized church body (parenting the little ones very, very directly, one way or another).

That was supposed to be the whole point of the small group movement.  It's a great idea.  But any idea implemented without grace will run into ruin.

Therefore, the solution here must begin with grace........ and parents are the ones who should set the tone for grace.........  sometimes children do......... but that is not how it should be..........

So, in summary, some of those who decry any complaints about such 'seizures' as those mentioned above (or other types of 'seizures' in other styles of church organization) - without emphasizing evangelizing first, simply want to continue the hypocrisy in their own leadership......., and complain about the results of that legalism/hypocrisy.

What that would mean is that children cannot complain if they have gone into shut down (as some children do when they are asked to do a task which is beyond them at the moment), until they have gotten *themselves* out of shut down.

Such complaints against those who have 'shut down' for whatever reason will not produce the fruit of true evangelism.

Rather, grace, ........... true grace........ that is the place where evangelism begins........

Thanking God for grace already received!  Praising God for grace past, present, and future!  And seeking grace in all things........ in all moments........ for all people..........

Those people with whom we have a grievance both in and out of the church.

Those people whom we love, with whom God has a grievance, both in and out of the church........

And foremost...... seeking grace, each of us more every day....... that we may grow in grace.......  His kind of grace........ His actual grace............  grace abounding more and more in all things......

Which would indeed obliterate complaining, and which would indeed produce fruit unto salvation...... in our own lives, and in the lives of the lost.